Wamu WKN 893906 News !

gegrübelt und finde keine Erklärung dafür,

warum die Hf ausgerechnet am 9.12. handeln durften,

ausser der, dass sie ihr Insiderwissen ausnutzen sollten!

Was sagen die Speziallisten?

Sooo ganz langsam schließt sich der Kreis.
Wir sind zwar noch nicht bei 100% , ob alles durchgeht oder verworfen wird aber viele Steine sind bereits aus dem Weg geräumt.
Und das werden wir zeitnah am Kurs sehen.
Viiiieeeeleicht sogar schon heute.
Auf einen guten Tag für uns.
Jeder ist seines Glückes Schmied aber nicht jeder Schmied hat Glück, lach.

Morgen,

Tja, da hat der arme Rosen wohl zu hoch gepokert.

Mal sehen wie der sich aus der Schlinge zieht.

Odin

Moin WAMU Gemeinde,

zum Thema der Gedächtnislücken der Angehörten möchte ich mal kurz etwas zur Sache tun.
Da ich jeden Tag mit Kunden zu tun habe und quasi täglich Angebote versenden und Aufträge abwickle, ist das ganze zu einer Routine geworden. Genau solch eine Routine macht mit der Zeit in der Tat vergesslich, bzw. man vergisst spezielle Details oder besprochene Sonderkonditionen nach Abschluss schon nach kürzester Zeit. Am Anfang war das noch anders, als die Aufträge nur alle Paar Wochen kamen bzw. einige wenige im Monat, da konnte man sich gut an jeden einzelnen erinnern, heute sieht die Welt schon ein wenig anders aus.

Was ich damit sagen will ist das man diesen Leuten nicht nachsagen sollte dass das alles Absicht ist mit den Aussagen "das weiß ich nicht mehr".

Nach 2 bzw. 3 Jahren kann man sich nicht mehr an alles erinnern und da diese Läden (Heusschrecken) warscheinlich jeden Tag zwischen legalen und illegalen Machenschaften wandern und eine Menge von Trading und Investments betreiben, sollte man die Vergesslichkeit der befragten Leute nicht überbewerten.

Klar sind da mit sicherheit einige Themen dabei an die man sich bewusst nicht mehr erinnern möchte, aber wenn ich weiß das evtl. Bewiese gegen mich vorliegen, dann gibt es keinen Grund zu sagen "das weiß ich nicht" außer ich weiß es wirklich nicht mehr.

investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=65396421

Zitat With Catz:

Nothing substantially new from me as of yet -- I'll need for us to finish (lol) the SNHs and have Kosturos be cross-examined {somehow there must be a better word than 'cross' for the 'exam' that I think is forthcoming}

But I am pleased with what I've heard {and mostly recap/live read} so far -- as it relates, to the POR Confirmation -- I'm thinking NFW for it being confirmed. Which, again, is our primary goal here.

Everything else is gravy. And I think we'll need a few more gravy boats.....


...Catz

A reminder: Transcripts for Day #1 through #3 are in the stickies, or here: investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=65393047
-----------------------
Zitat byrddog:

Malwani has overwhelmingly demonstrated the you can be a dumb sob and still make millions of dollars at a hedge fund. It only requires insider information, neglect of the law and very little intellect.

Byrd
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Zitat With Catz:

An interim two-cents.

If we go back to the prior Omnibus, where the SNH's were adamant that their crafted "Safe Harbor" put all the onus on the Debtors to determine what-was and what-wasn't 'Material Non-Public'.

And before that, we heard the SNHs claim they only traded on "Public" information.

Each iteration their story is changing.

Now the story is the more losey-goosey "We did not feel it was material", etc.

{This is more, IMHO, an anti-jail stance. There must be supposed malice and 'intention' proven for it to be a violation of securities laws.}

That doesn't mean that the court can't find other reasons -- such as corrupting of the plan, process, etc.

The court does not need to find this to be a criminal matter. This is a civil one.

I next expect the SNHs to do the "even if we did it, it wasn't meant to be, and because we didn't mean it to be, we didn't violate securities laws, and since we didn't violate securities laws, it can't be used against us here"

Wait for it.

It's coming.


IMHO, the Hedgies will try to tie "you can't prove criminal intent"... to "you can't call us ugly in this case".

Won't work. This is Civil court. Corrupting the process, etc doesn't require proving "criminal" level intent.

...Catz

Yes, that matters here. Because the standards are civil, and bankruptcy law, not criminal.

And that's the point I'm making here.

Sure, I'm the first one that wants to see perp walks, handcuffs and jail suits.

But that's secondary. And we certainly don't want the HF's trying the "well, the standard is criminal" or "we haven't been convicted of anything, therefore the bankruptcy process can't be proven to be flawed here".

Neither are required. I'm saying they will try that. IMHO.

The court will decide whether there is sufficient (and I think there is so far) evidence that the process was flawed, violated BK process, and that will be sufficient to kill the POR.

I hope the GSA is killed also -- but since the SNHs are no longer signatories to it -- and we haven't seen TESTIMONY {yea, inference, but not seen} JPM, FDIC doing something wrong -- the GSA is a little tougher nut.

I also think that the Debtors themselves have a lot of 'Lucy Explaining' to do here -- and I can't wait for Kosturos to be on the stand.

...Catz
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ZitatWith Catz:

I believe ANICO does help. Strongly. I was saying that the testimony so far doesn't. Not significantly, IMHO. But we have more testimony coming -- especially from Kosturos -- one of the current 'GSA' (Debtors) signers.

I have my personal doubts about Stern helping at all -- in this specific case -- and I won't share why in public. Suffice it to say that I've done my DD on this, and have reviewed it with trusted council, and they share my concern on this one.

Too many evil eyes afoot. Don't want to give ideas out on that one.

...Catz
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ZItat fsshon:

ilenes.. The reality that seems to be surfacing about the way these hedge funds work is, they trade whenever they feel like it and the debtors were condoning their behavior. JPM seemed to have realized it in Early Fall 2009 and used it as leverage against them, when they did not get the GSA they (JPM) wanted, they filed a 2019 Motion on the HF's and waited while they (HF's) tried to wiggle out of it. It is very obvious JPM did not press the HF's and USCC for disclosure because they were using the signed Motion as leverage to get the GSA that only benefited JPM..

Seems like business as usual over at good ole JPM..
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ZItat ilenes:

Don, the more I sit in the court, the easier it is to get disgusted with how this all works. JPM used everything in its power to talk about settlement and then walk away, or change its mind at will. No accountability and a wild west mindset where anything goes, so long as you don't get caught.

Winning this is just the first step.
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ZItat ID Supermoney:

Could you ask EC why not ask for trading records on Dec 31, 2009??


Reason, find out what time each Hedgie started buying their shares?? before year end..

If they started buying in AM BEFORE any info came out in afternoon that they claim "we all new", then that would be IT to the max!!

All buys on trading records, show at what time they were purchased.



Reason they would have had the jump on all other people trading!!


If nothing else inquire!

Again thanks a million


ID
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ZItat ilenes:

have already passed along something similar. also, they do have most of the trading records...but I'll ask again
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ZItat Yanik  :

Hey Ilenes. Can you or anyone who remembers give me a rundown of what happened during the cross of the last guy on the stand today. Dan's Audio archive cuts off just when that cross started.

Thanks.
----------------
Zitat ilenes:

I'll give you a bit, and then others fill in. tired and ready to hit the bed, but if you missed hearing this, you missed a good show by Ed Sargent! he was on point and very tough with Malwani. In fact, he tried twice to get an admission and pushed so hard JMW asked him to move to the next question, since he wasn't going to get anywhere otherwise.

Malwani was well coached, but as a former Fried Frank attorney, I expected more from him. He fell apart with pressure, IMHO, but put up a good fight. like the others, he suffers from selective memory and a slippery understanding of the meaning of "trading restriction" I'll try and write more tomorrow morning...pretty tired now
--------------------------
Zitat drrugby:

Fsh, You got it right.. JPM knew that once WMI went into BK..

they knew what the distressed HF were going to do.

They have everyone in their pocket. With one exception.

The EC.. When the Debtors could not stop THJMW from having an EC..

The game changed.. Delay delay delay..

And here we are.. Debtors still billing the estate and every other attny..

But.. With WGM Rosen being through under the bus.

It just a matter of time..

If THJMW does one or two of the following things..

1. Rule against the HF with IT.
2. Rule the POR was not drafted in Good Faith.
3. Write an oppinion suggesting the EC motion to remove the Debtor due to conflicts.
4. Rule on Stern that BK Court can not settle DC claims.
5. Rule on Bank Funds.

The Game really changes in our favor..

GO WAMU EC..

DrR..

--------------------------------------------------

Zitatende

MfG.L:)

Zitat :

a recap of today?

Our guys rocked and despite the hedgies being really well coached, trading documents and compliance/employee handbooks don't lie.

JMW is intently listening to the testimony and I think she gets it, but I am still not calling it for the home team, yet. The tide is turning, and with each witness, except Malwani, agreeing that JPMC agreed to give back the 4.1...to me, the negotiations start after that and other assets get returned.

Kosturos is the big draw...he and BR are implicated in a number of negotiations that are clear examples of not maximizing value for the estate...at best.

Although the days are long...I still think this is the best show in town...bringing popcorn for tomorrow :)



the hedgies are well coached but cracking...formerly smug attorneys are looking a lot less so...JMW is getting the picture...informed shareholders are making a stand!



add FDIC to the list and we have a great start.

our team gets to shine in the forum they know best...courtroom wrangling...and as I said previously to someone last night (?), there is a direct and inverse correlation between how bad the hedgies, etc look and how good our guys look!
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ZItat rockie101:

ilenes.....were there several shareholders there today....know about how many and does the judge know they are shareholders ?
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ZItat ilenes:

there have been 4 or 5 there fairly consistently, and I am pretty sure everyone in the court is aware who they are!!
--------------------------------------------------
ZItatende


MfG.L:)

Die Euphorie gibt es scheinbar nur hier im Forum....Wahrscheinlich liegt es wieder an maßlosen Übertreibungen. Der Markt sieht die Gesamtlage ganz anders! Auch das volumen ist VIEL zu gering.

Wenn alle hier an Alzheimer leiden ,werden wir nie zu potte kommen.Mary ist nicht viel besser.Meines erachtens hätte Sie den Fall schon längst abgeben müssen. Da hier Beweise vorliegen ,muss es hohe Strafen für Insiderhandel regenen.Was passiert nun?Nichts Rosi wird sich da wieder raureden und den ganzen Mist versuchen zu verschieben,damit er sich eine neue Strategie ausdenken kann.Ich hoffe das Kasperlethater hat hier bald ein Ende .

allerdings kam der rosen bisher immer besser weg als wir dachten!!!LEIDER

so eindeutig sind die beweise  auch noch nicht,siehe kurs bzw.tatbestand und sachlage.wunschgedanke bitte außen vor lassen.

ich würde es  gerne begrüßen,daß wir recht bekommen und der kurs explodiert.nur leider ist es noch nicht soweit,weil es anscheinend "noch"nicht bestätigt wurde.

vielleicht bringt der heutige tag mehr beweisbares ans tageslicht oder die schlußplädoyers werden uns aufschluß geben.

die hoffnung stirbt zuletzt,ich kann warten(darin sind wir mittlerweile geübt)

http://www.ariva.de/...KN_893906_News_t364286?page=6121#jumppos153031

Ja, das sehe ich ähnlich. Wenn ich versuche, Kundenverhandlungen von vor 2 Jahren zu erinnern, bekomme ich einen Schreck das ich fast alles vergessen haben. Für den Kunden war diese Verhandlung etwas Besonderes, da er diese spezielle Situation selten hat. Für mich war es alltägliches. Der Kunde weiss noch alles ziemlich genau und ich stehe blöde da. Da hilft nur eine ausgesprochen ausführliche Dokumentation der Verhandlungen.

Im WAMU-Fall ist es sicher die Kombination aus 2 Aspekten.
1. Können die sich wahrscheinlich häufig WIRKLICH kaum erinnern.
2. Sind die vorbereitet (gebrieft) und wissen genau, welche Fakten sie bestätigen und welche sie versuchen unter dem Deckmantel "vergessen" zu verstecken, um die eigene Situation zu verbessern. Das ist ein Katz und Maus Spiel und unsere Anwälte haben die Aufgabe, die Zeugen unter Druck zu setzen, Widersprüche aufzuzeigen und mittels einer Kombination von Beweisen und Aussagen zu den gewünschten Ergebnissen zu kommen. Das machen sie doch bisher ganz gut ;-)

*KA*

messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/...amp;frt=2#804852

ZItat:

Aurelius Attys Aided Wrongful Trading WaMu Shareholders

Aurelius Attys Aided Wrongful Trading: WaMu Shareholders
Law360, Wilmington (July 19, 2011) -- Washington Mutual Inc. shareholders said Tuesday at a hearing in Delaware bankruptcy court that Aurelius Capital Management LP’s counsel facilitated improper trading during WaMu’s bankruptcy, keeping the hedge fund abreast of settlement talks as it traded freely from the sidelines. The hedge fund — one of four accused of insider trading by shareholders in an effort to derail WaMu’s reorganization plan — drifted in and out of settlement negotiations to resolve the biggest bank failure in U.S. history. But its law firm, Fried Frank Harris Shriver & Jacobson LLP, passed along critical details from the talks to Aurelius, enabling the hedge fund to trade on material nonpublic information, a shareholder committee attorney said. Committee attorney Parker Folse of Susman Godfrey LLP made the allegations during a withering cross-examination of Aurelius managing director Dan Gropper, which spanned two days during WaMu’s Chapter 11 plan confirmation hearing. Gropper bristled at the idea that Aurelius and Fried Frank, which also represented three other hedge funds implicated by shareholders, were anything but meticulous in their compliance with securities laws and confidentiality agreements. “You can’t do this halfway,” Gropper said. “This doesn’t operate on a wink and a nod. What you are suggesting would not be appropriate.
Shareholders have tied their hopes of a recovery in the case to insider trading claims against Aurelius, Owl Creek Asset Management LP, Appaloosa Management LP and Centerbridge Partners LP, which stem from the hedge funds’ involvement in settlement negotiations between WaMu, JPMorgan Chase Bank NA and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. The settlement, cleared by the court in January, splits $10 billion in assets between WaMu and JPMorgan, and releases billions in claims among the three over the FDIC’s seizure of WaMu’s affiliated bank after it failed in 2008 and the subsequent sale of the bank to JPMorgan for $1.9 billion. Fried Frank remained at the negotiating table to represent the hedge funds, which hold $2 billion in WaMu securities, after they ceased direct involvement in the talks and resumed unrestricted trading. But the firm was on strict instructions not to discuss the substance of settlement proposals with Aurelius, Gropper testified, unless the hedge fund agreed beforehand to limit its trades.
Folse pointed to major movement in Aurelius’ position in January 2010 toward WaMu’s subordinated bonds as evidence that the hedge fund knew a deal was near, even though the debtors and JP Morgan maintained an outwardly litigious posture at the time. The shareholder committee also produced emails between Fried Frank and the debtor suggesting that the hedge funds were directing the firm in the talks based on the specifics of one settlement proposal that had not been disclosed to the public. Daniel Krueger, a managing director at Owl Creek, took the stand after Gropper and testified that his firm operated under the assumption that settlement proposals could never be considered material nonpublic information.
Part 2“Only when a deal is reached,” Krueger said. Witnesses for the remaining hedge funds will take the stand Wednesday and Thursday as WaMu rounds out it plan confirmation hearing.
The insider trading allegations, if substantiated, could convince U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Mary F. Walrath to impose the lower, federal judgment interest rate on the hedge fund’s claims, rather than the contracted rate — which the shareholders hope will free up value for their own claims.
The shareholders have also moved for standing to sue Centerbridge and Aurelius and potentially disallow their claims in the bankruptcy entirely. WaMu is represented by Brian S. Rosen of Weil Gotshal & Manges LLP as well as Mark D. Collins, Chun I. Jang, Travis A. McRoberts and Julie A. Finocchiaro of Richards Layton & Finger PA. The equity committee is represented by William P. Bowden, Gregory A. Taylor and Stacy L. Newman of Ashby & Geddes PA as well as Edgar Sargent, Stephen D. Susman and Seth D. Ard of Susman Godfrey LLP

www.law360.com/bankruptcy/articles/...;utm_campaign=bankruptcy


Zitatende


MfG.L:)

....tja, aber um sich auf etwas vorzubereiten, sollte jeder sich gewisse Angelegenheiten noch in's Gedächtnis rufen.........

z.B. Betrug

Da ich ja fast jeden Tag jemanden "betrüge" sollte ich zumindest in dem Fall, der nicht nur mir zur Last gelegt wird, mich dahingehend wieder gedanklich auffrischen..........um auf gewisse Dinge die mir zur Last gelegt werden könnten, Vorbereitet zu sein.....

an illene rantreten und sie bitten für die nächsten tage nicht zu twittern?
um zu sehen ob und wie die  die sich draufverlassen im court dann reagieren?!
für uns istes doch durch die super arbeit in den boards möglich alles mit zuverfolgen.

nur eine idee mfg

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ZItat mordicai:

This is the trial for the confirmation of por 6.5 ! I believe it was Owl Creek's lawyer who admitted IT in court when he stated everyone did it. After I heard that I thought this thing would be settled without any hearing. I would think the hedge funds have been brought to their knees by now, they know Kosturus is going to screw up big time, so I think they may now be willing to forfeit at least half their positions for this to go away. But I am now not so certain that EC wants to settle this thing at this point.



Well I would think Owl creek might be on board as of tonight for a settlement . lol. Gropper lacks credibility...anyone does who says I can't recall. If Walrath accepted Nate's hearsay to get to the bottom of this, I just don't see her ignoring all this side stepping. I have never had the time to check, but maybe EC rejected the settlement immediately after the advance sheet came out for the Stern case.

ZItatende

MfG.L:)

Morgen alle zusammen.
das meinst du doch nicht im ernst. Diese Manager sind nur dafür da, um möglichst viel Gewinn rauszuholen. Egal ob legal oder Illegale. Únd ich denke die Aktion mit WMI ist hochgradig illegal und wirft eine Menge Geld ab. Und da kann ich mich schon an Detail erinnern.

Vielen Dank an alle die so fleißig ihr einbringen und auch den Ultranormalo ein wenig durchblicken lassen.

Lebenslang

www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229110720000000000007.pdf

Amended Notice of Eighth Quarterly Fee Application Request of FTI Consulting, Inc.


MfG.L:)

Moin,

ich sehe das völlig anders. Kann mich noch an eine Aussage erinnern, als ein Hedgie sagte, er wisse zwar, dass das Gespräch 20 Min. gedauert habe, könne sich aber nicht mehr erinnern, worum es ging. Das ist für mich eine Vera...schung. Natürlich kann man sich nach zwei Jahren nicht mehr an alles erinnern, aber an Gespräche, durch die Millionen von Dollars in die eigenen Taschen gespült wurden, kann sich mit Sicherheit jeder erinnern. Und genau darum gehts! Ob er sich mit Rosen über Wal-Sichtungen oder Ähnliches unterhalten hat, interessiert schließlich niemanden... ;-)

An interim two-cents.

If we go back to the prior Omnibus, where the SNH's were adamant that their crafted "Safe Harbor" put all the onus on the Debtors to determine what-was and what-wasn't 'Material Non-Public'.

And before that, we heard the SNHs claim they only traded on "Public" information.

Each iteration their story is changing.

Now the story is the more losey-goosey "We did not feel it was material", etc.

{This is more, IMHO, an anti-jail stance. There must be supposed malice and 'intention' proven for it to be a violation of securities laws.}

That doesn't mean that the court can't find other reasons -- such as corrupting of the plan, process, etc.

The court does not need to find this to be a criminal matter. This is a civil one.

I next expect the SNHs to do the "even if we did it, it wasn't meant to be, and because we didn't mean it to be, we didn't violate securities laws, and since we didn't violate securities laws, it can't be used against us here"

Wait for it.

It's coming.

...Catz

investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=65397772

es geht hier um eine der größten Sparkassen der USA, da sollte man schon noch Wissen um was es ging,
guten Morgen  @all

Ich sehe das ähnlich, wie die letzten Schreiber. Wenn ich mich nach zwei oder drei Jahren spontan an eine Sache erinnern soll, die normalerweise zur Tagesroutine gehört, dann wird es wohl sehr schwer.
Wenn ich aber vor Gericht über etwas berichten soll, über das mit Sicherheit auch noch Protokoll geführt wurde und über das es (geheime) Verträge gibt, Absprachen, Provisionszusagen und vieles mehr....
Da brauche ich einen Tag vorher nur mal nachzuschauen.
He, wie schrieb stay: große Vera....
Gruß
OW

aber hier gibt es nicht viel zu relativieren !

die eigentliche sache (gespräche,verhandlungen, geheime absprachen usw.) geschah vor 2 jahren ...dagegen ist ja auch nichts in bezug auf erinnerungs"lücken" zu sagen !

aber es wird/wurde peinlich bzw. kriminell für den zeugen  es als unser anwalt genau in bezug auf diese vor 2 jahres-ereignisse BEZOGEN...eine EMAIL zügt, die eine woche alt ist und sich der name  bzw. bestätigung des zeugen in dieser mail befindet !

PS: es sind zur zeit viele "examiner" in sämtlichen foren unterwegs ;-)))))

möchte mein Café mal in Ruhe trinken, wär das ok,
Danke !

Ich gebe Euch ja Recht, ich schreibe ja auch nicht das man sich an nichts erinnern sollte, aber die Frage ist ja auch, will ich es denn wieder in Erinnerung haben?
Wenn ich weiß das mir da einiges zur Last gelegt werden kann, dann bin ich doch lieber unvorbereitet und antworte wahrheitsgemäß mit "das weiß ich nicht mehr", als mich durch mein Wissen über das Thema in Wiedersprüche zu verwickeln. Je weniger ich weiß, desto besser ist es doch für mich.
Hier ging es zwar um die größte Sparkasse der USA, aber wenn man sich die Investments von Appaloosa etc. anschaut, dann sieht man schnell das man dort mit Millionen und noch mehr Millionen quasi jeden Tag arbeitet, da vergisst man als Manager auch schnell mal sowas.

....besser wäre: "ein Loch im Kopf"