ich wünsche allen Wamukranken ein gesundes neues Jahr ;)
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Post aus I Hub:
investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=58323599
ZItat:
"THJMW ordered JPM to provide list of assets within 60 days"
(A repost of mine from Y! -- link to that at the end)
{THIS IS A LONG POST -- However, IMHO, It's important to read -- especially those who "remember" things a different way}
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Ok, a few days ago, I took a mission to find what has been stated as:
"THJMW ordered JPM to provide a list of assets within 60 days"
(and of course, the corollary is that JPM never did)
Numerous people had stated they remembered this, and I thought it was quite important for either current or future fights about asset valuations, etc. Since, we have never seen assets listed.
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I'll post lots of links, transcripts, etc in a few moments. (In several parts - please read them in sequence)
But before I do so, -- prepare to teleport back to January of 2009 -- just a few months after the seizure.
** CONTEXT IS CRITICAL TO UNDERSTAND THINGS HERE **
One must put themselves into the "way-back" machine. Back when WMI was (it appears) truly fighting against JPM and the FDIC, and JPM was a true adversary then.
WMI wanted to establish a 'bar date' for claims, including any claims that JPM would bring against the estate.
Of course, one of the open issues was the disputed assets, and JPM was claiming they needed "more time" to file their proof of claims, etc.
So it all came to a head for a hearing on 1/29/2009.
*** AGAIN, THIS IS ALL FROM ANCIENT TIMES -- which is why I think memories are what they are ***
Next will be from January 29th, 2009 -- almost TWO years ago.
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NOW. If after reading what I'm posting next, if this isn't what you are "thinking" when you "remember" that a list of assets was supposed to be provided...
....Then I implore you to please help with finding exactly what you 'remember' happened. This issue has been repeated so often, and is of such great importance, that 'memory' isn't sufficient. IMHO.
I'm quite confident, after reading the entire transcript, that what I am posting next is accurate, and what really happened.
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(FYI, this has NOTHING to do with the P&A stating that an asset list was to be compiled. That's a separate issue)
(Part #1)
One must put themselves into the "way-back" machine. Back when WMI was (it appears) truly fighting against JPM and the FDIC, and JPM was a true adversary then.
WMI wanted to establish a 'bar date' for claims, including any claims that JPM would bring against the estate.
Of course, one of the open issues was the disputed assets, and JPM was claiming they needed "more time" to file their proof of claims, etc.
So it all came to a head for a hearing on 1/29/2009.
While I'm summarizing here the transcript, I have given full links to the transcript, and the agenda, and the relevant filings.
Agenda for the 1/29 hearing
(#622) www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090128000000000006.pdf
Debtors motion for establishing a Bar Date for Claims
(#549) www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090108000000000004.pdf
JPM's objection
(#578) www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090122000000000001.pdf
1/29/2009 transcript - wmish.com/de/090814/2009.1.29-HEARING%20TRANSCRIPT.PDF
(Part #2)
PDF Page 47 --- from the transcript provided...
24 MS. FELDSTEIN: Good morning, again, Your Honor.
25 Hydee Feldstein from Sullivan & Cromwell for JP Morgan Chase.
1 I feel a little bit like the elephant in the room. I
2 shouldn’t be heard if I don’t file a pleading, and I
3 shouldn’t be heard if I do file a pleading I was invited to
4 file. Let me start by removing what I think is a red
5 herring. It is correct, that because we view many of the
6 disputes between ourselves and this estate as disputes over
7 ownership of assets, not simply claims against the estate,
8 that in our papers we did put forth the argument that the bar
9 date ought not to apply to us with respect to those claims.
PDF Page 50
16 ... Separating the assets and the
17 liabilities of these two estates is a difficult task. It is
18 complex. It is painstaking. The records are voluminous.
19 They are incomplete. They are inconsistent. ...
...
25... If in
1 fact this Court orders us to file proofs of claims by March
2 31, that is what we will do. The quality and the substance
3 of those claims may not be what it ought to be or what it
4 could be if given more time. We will do as thorough,
5 careful, and responsible a job as we can within the time
6 frame allotted to us. We believe that a reasonable bar date,
7 in order to put matters at issue appropriately, is July 31st.
(US Trustee weighs in)
PDF Page 52
5 THE COURT: Thank you. I do not think this is
6 something that requires testimony.
7 MR. McMAHON: Your Honor, good morning. Joseph
8 McMahon for the Acting United States Trustee. I don’t think
9 the debtors have a correct understanding of the reasons why
10 we filed our response. Your Honor’s very familiar with the
11 circumstances leading up to the filing of the debtors’
12 schedules and statements. They asked for and obtained from
13 this Court authority to file those schedules after
14 approximately a three-month period on grounds that they did
15 not have the information needed to complete them. They did
16 file schedules and statements at a certain point, and just as
17 recently as two days ago, I should say, filed amendments to
18 those schedules and statements.
22 ...The debtors acknowledge that
23 there are a series of benefit plans and that it’s a defined
24 term in paragraph (22) of the reply, under which employees
25 may have claims against WMI on account of their
1 participation. In paragraph (23), the first sentence
2 indicates - and I’ll read it into the record: “It has not yet
3 been determined whether WMI, JP Morgan Chase, as purchaser of
4 WMB’s assets, or the FDIC, as a receiver of WMB, is liable to
5 former employees on account of the benefit plans -” and this
6 sentence goes on.
(Part #3)
And we now get to what is "remembered". About the 60 day deadline that THJMW gave to JPM.
This is, from ALL RESEARCH I HAVE FOUND, the only deadline given to JPM by THJMW.
PDF Page 66
20 THE COURT: Well, I’m going to overrule JPM’s
21 objection. I press the debtor to file the schedules despite
22 the same argument they raised that JPM now raises that this
23 is complicated and we need time. It is true that a bar date
24 is essential to move a case, and I think it’s essential to
25 require that JPM file their proof of claim in 60 days.
THAT'S IT. IMHO. The confusion between the "provide a list of assets" within 60 days, and JPM Filing a Proof of Claim within 60 days.
JPM was claiming that it was the confusion over asset ownership that prevented them from being able to file a Proof of Claim.
THJMW ordered that JPM provide their Proof of Claim anyway within 60 days.
THAT DID NOT, necessarily, translate into a requirement that JPM provide a list of assets.
...Catz
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(I was then asked if JPM did file a Proof of claim in time. And the answer is yes, check KCCLLC, plenty of claims filed by the March 31st deadline.... )
plenty filed on 3/30/2009 -- 60 days after 1/29/2009
Check KCCLLC
Examples:
3/30/2009 - 2535 - JPMC Wind Investments - Unliquidated
3/30/2009 - 2541 - JPMC Wind Investments - Unliquidated
3/30/2009 - 3023 - JPMorgan Chase Bank National Association
3008 - JPMorgan Chase Bank National Association
3001 ditto, etc..
2999
2369
2997
2994
2609
.....etc
{The link to the Y! thread on this: messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/...;frt=1&off=1 }
ZItatende
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investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=58332835
Zitat:
Catz, I under took the same mission and issue early last spring.
My conclusion was a bit different than yours due to my understanding.
I admit that my understanding may not be complete, however I am quite confident in my conclusion.
Jpm's objection that you linked was revolved around being exempt from the bar date to file a proof of claim. In order to file that proof of claim, an asset list needed to be provided along with the proof of claim.
In the transcript that you linked, Rodents addressed the court just prior to the jpm lawyer. This is important for context. His remarks, tone and general attitude about extending the bar date or exemption of the bar date for jpm were quite cutting. They revolved around jpm being in possession of all of all of WAMU books and he could not understand why they couldn't provide the asset list in order to file a complete proof of claim.
The transcript you posted has one more line on the judges order that is also extremely important.
". It is true that a bar date is essential to move a case, and I think it’s essential to require that JPM file their proof of claim in 60 days. If they need to amend that claim when additional information is received, there are rules that permit that.
The additional information she is referring to is the list of assets, being compiled and amended as addition info was being found
Zitatende
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investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=58333169
Zitat:
I guess we read the same information and come to seperate conclusions.
To recap my view: JPM stated that the asset disputes were the root cause of their difficulty in meeting the bar date.
and as shown, they met the bar date on 3/30/2009 anyway by providing their proofs of claims. And did so without providing a list of all assets, but they did recap those assets which they needed to provide a proof of claim about -- that is, what they disputed.
See their ONE claim here as an example (they filed several proofs of claim): Reference – JPMC Proof of Claim, March 30, 2009 – Attachment A - www.kccllc.net/documents/0812229/0812229090330000000000292.pdf
It talks about tax returns, etc.
But, the point I was after -- was the various posts I read that say "THJMW told JPM to provide a list of assets within 60 days".
It's very clear to me that the only requirement she put on JPM was to file a proof of claim within 60 days. And JPM did.
Where we differ is:
" In order to file that proof of claim, an asset list needed to be provided along with the proof of claim. " --- not true, JPM stated that the disputed assets made it difficult, and the quality of their proof of claim may suffer due to the complexity and disputed assets, but they met the date.
"The additional information she is referring to is the list of assets, being compiled and amended as addition info was being found " -- not true. If JPM needed to make further claims later, they could and there were rules to deal with that. This was not a requirement from THJMW to provide an asset list, nor a requirement for anything further from JPM. JPM met the bar date. And if JPM decides, in JPM's opinion, that they needed to file another claim, there was a process for it.
So I come full circle. I contend that the "memory" of some that JPM was ordered to provide a list of assets within 60 days, is false.
They were ordered to provide a proof of claim within 60 days. And they did. Several in fact. And met the bar date set by THJMW.
...Catz
Zitatende
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MfG.L:)
"Ein jeder gibt den Wert sich selbst"
"Der Schein regiert die Welt, und die Gerechtigkeit ist nur auf der Bühne".(Parasit)
Und es herrscht der Erde Gott, das Geld.(An die Freude)